As I was reading something from the Gospels the other day it occurred to me that Jesus’ first disciples started following him long before they recognized his divinity or developed anything like a theology of incarnation or Trinity. They were disciples before they were worshipers, technically speaking.
We normally think of things the other way around, it seems to me. Typically we see the first step as “belief,” specifically, belief in certain facts: that I am a sinner, that I cannot save myself, that Jesus is fully God and fully man, etc. First (we think) people must worship Jesus as Savior and God, get a few theological facts straight, and then we can start talking about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. We don’t seem to talk much about following Jesus until people have “crossed the line” of becoming a worshiper of Jesus.
But the disciples didn’t seem to have any inkling of worshiping Jesus when they first started following him with the intent of learning to do and be what he did and was. For example, when did Peter “cross the line” of faith? Was it when he confessed his sinfulness after the miraculous catch of fish (Luke 5:1-11), after his confession that Jesus was the Messiah (Matt 16:13-18), after his betrayal and repentance (Matt 26:69-75), or at his reinstatement (John 21:15-19)? Who knows? And does it matter, really? Peter was on a journey of discovering who Jesus was as he followed Jesus and learned to do what he did.
Couldn’t this be an appropriate path of Christian discipleship today? People are fascinated and intrigued by Jesus. Why not call them into small communities of intentional learning, where we follow Jesus together, whether or not everyone in the group would self-identify as a Christian? Who knows what might happen along the way.
What do you think are the implications for the way we draw people toward Jesus in post-Christendom cultures? Perhaps we ought to call people to becoming disciples of Jesus before asking them to “cross the line” of believing the Apostles’ Creed or worshiping him as God. Perhaps in that journey of being with Jesus to learn from Jesus how to be like Jesus they would come to faith and worship, just like the earliest disciples did.
Maybe evangelism in post-Christendom contexts needs to look less like asking people to accept a theory of atonement and more like inviting people to follow Jesus in God’s mission of renewing all things. Perhaps in that journey people would discover the truth of who they are and who Jesus is in a more visceral, embodied, practical way.
What do you think? Is this too radical? Not radical enough? Has anyone tried anything like this? Any stories to tell?
I like this, if only because it de-emphasizes the "sinner's prayer" as the ultimate turning point and/or the only thing that matters. It removes the agenda of Christians to "save the unbeliever" and opens up more possibilities for the Spirit to do its work. After all, is there a single turning point, or is it more about the journey?
((Off-topic (maybe): Another thing I'd love for you to blog about (or see other blogs post about): Kids and discipleship. I'm really struggling with the implications of kids' programs in general (you know, the Wednesday night ones) and whether there's value or harm there… and whether my perspective as an adult doesn't apply to kids, and vice versa. Mainly: How young is too young for discipleship? What does discipleship look like for kids? And, does the performance-and-reward system of most kids' programs have lasting implications for their faith and how they see God, or is it just a bit of fun with the real benefit being positive, non-parent adult influences?))
That's a great idea to blog about kids and discipleship – it's something that has been on my mind a lot lately.
Awesome post. Thanks for sharing it. You are right on and need to continue to challenge people to think differently. I love the story of Peter confessing who Jesus was. I am amazed that it took place 2 or even 3 years after Peter began following Jesus. Jesus keeps calling people to follow Him. He and His Spirit (according to Jesus in the passage with Peter) take care of the followers knowing He is the Son of God.
Thanks for commenting, youthofarabia.
This is the firest time I have ever seen this concept, but after some consideration from my journey with discipleship and spiritually it hits the nail on the head for me. My discipleship has lead me into Gods spirituallity and as I continue to follow in disicipleship the more my spirituallity grows. God bless and thanks for the revelation.
Benjamin…two words:
1) Boo
2) Yah
Booyah.
Great post.
I always appreciate your nuanced thoughts, Doug 😉
But I kid. Thank you.
You make a very cogent point. The only caveat I would suggest is that the disciples were steeped in the culture of Jewish faith and anticipation of Messiah, so they probably had a mindset quite different from most people in our culture. Still, I think you've hit on something. Why do we consider discipleship as beginning from the point of professed assent to certain dogma? And the more steeped we are in our "orthodox" theology, the more prerequisites we put in the way of those who would come to Christ. That's why Kim VB's comment is totally on point. While she was asking about children's ministries in general, her question has ramifications for child-rearing in the home, as well. We treat our children, whom we are ostensibly raising in the fear and admonition of the Lord, as though they are pagans. What kind of discipleship is that?
That's a good thought, Vern – they did probably have some idea if what they were getting into when they said yea to Jesus' call. But in another sense, they had no idea. Jesus defied everyone's view if what the Messiah would do, including the totally unexpected fact that he would be God in the flesh.
But that was all part if the subsequent surprise for the disciples, who started out following a young Jewish rabbi.
I so agree. I love the emphasis on the journey. To believe it is simply about a moment, a "line", puts the focus in the wrong place, on the wrong things. And, in some ways, it even diminishes the process of salvation (which is about transformation and growth and healing and hope and holiness and…) I don't know about you, but these things take time in my life. I journey in each. If more of us viewed it this way, I think we'd have fewer people holding a "I'm in… you're not" mindset. Then, with the exclusivity awash in the sea of journeys we are all on… I think we'd see compassion emerge.
I enjoy your thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
Mark
Thanks for your comment, Mark. Helps flesh out some of the implications I was thinking about, too.
Reminds me of Brian McLaren's book "New Kind of Christian", where they pose the question that maybe we should stop counting conversions and start counting conversations! Maybe a radical thought, but feels good in my heart.
Clara, I agree that we need to have some way of valuing all the “little” things that happen that draw people toward Jesus.
Clara, I agree that we need to have some way of valuing all the "little" things that happen that draw people toward Jesus.
Can't agree more.
I would also like to add that the sinner's prayer and acceptance to a particular atonement theory have more of a potential to work in a certain American evangelical/revivalist context. So just as Vern Woodeen rightly reminds us that the 1st century followers of Jesus were living in the expectation of the Messiah (in some sense), the generations of the builders and boomers lived with their own expectation. For them, among the things that worked were Billy Graham crusades, 4 Spiritual Laws, denominationalism, a separatist view of culture, and more
For us X'ers and Millennials living in more multi-cultiral and pluralistic contexts, belonging and a sense of community are our values that will lead people in communion with Jesus.
Wow, man. Thank you. Don't know if I've ever thought of it that way. I'm a buddy of Doug Paul's, and just recently found your blog through him. Great stuff.
Thanks for the comment, Kenny. Hope to hear your voice around here in the future!
Ben,
I agree with the substance of what you're saying but I'm a bit confused why you're setting worshipping Jesus against following Jesus. By all means lets set up following Jesus against believing all the right dogmas. And I recognize that calling people to worship Jesus may not fit into a post-Christian context in the same ways. I know you're not saying we shouldn't worship Jesus, but the disciples were ready to die with Jesus before their theology was very far along (Thomas in John 11 I think?) And the gospel of John seems to set his followers against outsiders by defining them as sheep who believed AND followed. (John 10)
I'm all about helping people overcome barriers (which, if I read you right, you're referencing systematic theology and the fundamentalist ecclesiology of its stepchildren) to connection with God's Kingdom. So if you are just meaning to remove barriers, then of course there's nothing I disagree with. I guess I'm just failing to see how 'worship' is a barrier.
As you suspect, I'm not necessarily saying they're mutually exclusive. I think a full relationship with Jesus will involve following/obeying as well as worshiping/adoring.
I'm talking more about the way in, the initial call we give to people. If the disciples' entry point was following a Rabbi, why can't that be the entry point for people today?
Yes disciples were ready to die with Jesus, and believed he was the Messiah, but that didn't necessarily mean they worshiped him (yet). The followers of Maccabes were ready to die with him and thought he was the Messiah, but they did not worship him as God.
All I'm saying is that if people are interested in following Jesus, we ought to have a more organic way of letting them explore what that looks like without muddling things up with questions of divinity and worship.
In the background of this assumption is the belief that, like the original disciples, if we follow Jesus far enough, we will discover his true nature and end up in a way of life that follows AND worships him. So it's partly about trusting the Holy Spirit to do what he says he will: reveal Jesus to people.
And did Dunn's "Did the first Christians worship Jesus?" influence your thoughts?
I haven't read that, but it sounds like an interesting question!
I think this is a wonderful concept. It takes emphasis from the all or nothing (baptism then chill till death/convert on the way) to what should we be doing as christians while we're here? and having Jesus be the emphasis is what I'm trying to do, so why not have others along? I know so many people who have been wounded by the church, and therefore are skeptical of faith, but I have a feeling a lot of them would get a long great with Jesus if they got to know who he really was, not our watered-down, Sunday morning version.
Discipleship as evangelism, in other words!
Ya, I can get on board with that method, i think!
Great Thoughts, You Know Jesus told his disciples; "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." The place to begin is following, and that suggests discipleship.
Thanks for the comment, Oladipo.
You are calling for topical stories here and I think I have one. My wife and I have been leading a small group of members of the larger church for several years now. The approach that we have offered to great success has been taking a list of questions related to a passage of scripture and then coming with questions of our own. In this way, we don't spoon feed them the answers. We insist on participation as these believers struggle to find their own ideas in response to the questions. We have made it a safe place so that they can be adjusted if their thoughts drift beyond the scripture. This pattern has been a benefit to the whole church as these precious saints take up the servant positions in the assembly. They are the ushers, the set up crews for communion and special events, and the people reaching out into their circle. They also are the one's who make the worship time on tuesdays and sundays to be delightful indeed as they pursue the God they love so much. I believe it all springs from allowing them to express their faith to each other with us giving them all the answers.
Thanks for sharing that, Ian. Great to hear.
I believe some people may have a point in time conversion, but my coming to faith was more of a journey or process. I'm not to fond of the cookie cutter approach to doing things, especially with how we do church and ministry. How someone comes to faith in Christ as Lord and Savior will most likely look different from person to person, and that's ok.
I agree – even among the disciples there seems to be varying degrees of understanding about who Jesus was, etc. Part of what this displays to me is the immense trust Jesus had in the coming of the Spirit to "seal the deal" and finish the job, something I will be posting on in a few days.
Comment Part 1:I think that this is what has always happened e.g. in the Billy Graham crusade days – their research showed 'converts' were already following/ investigating and 'coming forward' was the leap over the stile. More recently with crusades out of fashion don't we engage with people on the basis of 'what do you think of this?' or a bit later, 'what do you think of Jesus?' In the UK 'Alpha' and 'Exploring Christianity' courses and similar invite along people who (mostly) are getting good vibes about Jesus from their friends and want to get a chance to move on – often towards 'conversion'. There has to be a time when one is reconciled to God, and when not!?
Comment part 2: As to the disciples – are they not a special case? i.e. Jesus did not form any 'churches'; the believers were 'first called Christians' in Antioch and 'followers of The Way' in Acts i.e. after Pentecost. Was not his primary purpose to show that he is the Messiah, the promised one, by sign and word, rather than a church planter? Jesus told them that the answers they were giving came from God, so the Spirit was working in them cf. Matt 16 at Caesarea Philippi. Charismatics, who I don't want to fight with but love and do work with, do, I think, get into trouble here because they assume that the gospels are normative for Christians – I'm not sure that's true very often. Anyway, thanks for opening up an important topic.
I would argue, Robin, that perhaps we've gotten slightly off-base in our focus on "planting churches" as opposed to making disciples. We've often assumed those are the same things, but I would argue that making disciples is first and foundational. Then when disciples gather together for teaching, mutual edification, etc. you have a "church."
Which is essentially what we see Jesus doing… he gathered the Twelve, and they were with him learning to be like him. That was his "church," and from there those disciples went out and made other disciples, thereby establishing "churches."
too radical… not radical enough?
My vote is not quite radical enough and needs some tweaking. Your way of describing it seems right on as far as it goes… BUT… it stresses what happens in the realm of ideas. For many it could leave out the essential relational dimension with others. Jesus called people into community FIRST based on the promise of a more meaningful life (come, and I will make you….). In that community he taught as life happened to them by his character, his insight and his connection with the Father in love and power.
I tend to think of conversion of having three parts: Beliving, Belonging, and Behaving. Discipleship, properly seen is, of course, all of these. But among us evangelicals it often has gotten shrunken down to a set of propositional truths we must accept. …. believing.
I definitely don't think that discipleship happens in the realm of ideas only, so if the post came off that way, it was unintentional.
The way we disciple people involves a very strong emphasis on action in the kingdom in the context of life in community with other disciples. The way we formulate it is that the life of the disciple of Jesus must necessarily involve the same kinds of dimensions Jesus' life had: UP (a rich prayer life with his Father: vibrant spirituality), IN (a close-knit relationship with his disciples: radical community), and OUT (love for those who don't know Him, and/or are experiencing injustice/oppression: missional movement).
I agree that if we shrink it down to "truths we accept" we empty it of its power.
In such a sub culture the radical example (and teachings) of Jesus on caring for the sick, poor, imprisoned and socially marginalized (for example) take a back seat to saying the sinners prayer for fear that we will be "too liberal." So does any sense of real commitment to a community. All of this is a far cry from what Jesus did.
On worship I would say that we worship what we know by experience, not by doctrine anyways. In a sense the disciples worshipped from the beginning – (witness Peter in the bottom of a fish filled boat on his knees). In some ways they did not know what they were worshipping. They had few theological categories for what they were experiencing. Even their messianic theology didn't quite fit (a major concern of Matthews gospel is to explain just how it is that Jesus is the Messiah) What they did know is that God had showed up AMONG them and at the center of this was Jesus.
Thanks for these helpful thoughts…. and for the chance to share mine.
I agree that the "worship" may have started early-on. Good thought on Peter in the boat.
I think what I was trying to say was that they didn't have all their theological "stuff" worked out when they started following, and it seems like the modern approach to evangelism works in the opposite direction: first seeking to make sure people really "sign off" on the right doctrines as the first step.