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	<title>Comments on: Christianity as Renewal Agent</title>
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	<description>field notes from the missional church planting frontier</description>
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		<title>By: clara</title>
		<link>http://bensternke.com/2009/11/christianity-as-renewal-agent/comment-page-1/#comment-2154</link>
		<dc:creator>clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Really appreciate your reply.  My questioning was actually more rhetorical because I&#039;ve been thinking about stuff like this for a long time, but mostly been rebuffed for it.  Glad to know someone thinks like this too.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really appreciate your reply.  My questioning was actually more rhetorical because I&#8217;ve been thinking about stuff like this for a long time, but mostly been rebuffed for it.  Glad to know someone thinks like this too.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Sternke</title>
		<link>http://bensternke.com/2009/11/christianity-as-renewal-agent/comment-page-1/#comment-2153</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Sternke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think you&#039;re on to something, Clara, in saying that as we rmbrace the suffering, their hearts will be opened to God.

I agree that for today pushing people toward a sinner&#039;s prayer is not the best strategy for bringing people into the life of the kingdom. Sometimes people think of the sinner&#039;s prayer as a kind of &quot;gospel magic,&quot; where if you can get someone to say the words just right, they&#039;re in! Job completed, put another notch in your gun. But for most people this just feels too much like an aggressive sales job. True conversion to Christ is a much deeper thing, and is usually a lot longer process than simply praying one prayer. I think we can learn a lot from the early church and the more ancient Catholic and Orthodox traditions on this one - getting &quot;in&quot; was always a long process of teaching, confession, repentance, exorcism (!!), etc... it was a long, steady turning away from evil and toward Christ that tended to produce people who really remained disciples of Jesus and continued to grow in the kingdom. Many times pushing for the &quot;sinner&#039;s prayer&quot; merely produces people who get disillusioned that their life didn&#039;t change the instant they said the magic words.

In many ways, I think we&#039;re heading into times that demand the &quot;strategies&quot; of the early church: they simply allowed the good news to permeate every aspect of their lives (discipleship to Jesus producing radical transformation of character), and thus showed people a better, happier, more secure way of life, and people were compelled to take a closer look at what made these people tick, and why they did the things they did.

When people are actually asking questions (because of our actions), then the door is open to &quot;give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have,&quot; and to &quot;do this with gentleness and respect.&quot; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:15-16&amp;version=TNIV&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1 Peter 3:15-16&lt;/a&gt;)

But until people see a different kind of life, lived out publicly in community, they won&#039;t be asking the questions, and thus won&#039;t care what we have to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re on to something, Clara, in saying that as we rmbrace the suffering, their hearts will be opened to God.</p>
<p>I agree that for today pushing people toward a sinner&#8217;s prayer is not the best strategy for bringing people into the life of the kingdom. Sometimes people think of the sinner&#8217;s prayer as a kind of &#8220;gospel magic,&#8221; where if you can get someone to say the words just right, they&#8217;re in! Job completed, put another notch in your gun. But for most people this just feels too much like an aggressive sales job. True conversion to Christ is a much deeper thing, and is usually a lot longer process than simply praying one prayer. I think we can learn a lot from the early church and the more ancient Catholic and Orthodox traditions on this one &#8211; getting &#8220;in&#8221; was always a long process of teaching, confession, repentance, exorcism (!!), etc&#8230; it was a long, steady turning away from evil and toward Christ that tended to produce people who really remained disciples of Jesus and continued to grow in the kingdom. Many times pushing for the &#8220;sinner&#8217;s prayer&#8221; merely produces people who get disillusioned that their life didn&#8217;t change the instant they said the magic words.</p>
<p>In many ways, I think we&#8217;re heading into times that demand the &#8220;strategies&#8221; of the early church: they simply allowed the good news to permeate every aspect of their lives (discipleship to Jesus producing radical transformation of character), and thus showed people a better, happier, more secure way of life, and people were compelled to take a closer look at what made these people tick, and why they did the things they did.</p>
<p>When people are actually asking questions (because of our actions), then the door is open to &#8220;give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have,&#8221; and to &#8220;do this with gentleness and respect.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:15-16&amp;version=TNIV" rel="nofollow">1 Peter 3:15-16</a>)</p>
<p>But until people see a different kind of life, lived out publicly in community, they won&#8217;t be asking the questions, and thus won&#8217;t care what we have to say.</p>
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		<title>By: clara</title>
		<link>http://bensternke.com/2009/11/christianity-as-renewal-agent/comment-page-1/#comment-2152</link>
		<dc:creator>clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree.... but struggle when in conversations with those who adamantly believe that the over-riding purpose of the church is to &quot;get people saved&quot;.  Once &quot;saved&quot;, all other problems will be solved!  Not keeping that as a priority seems to fly in the face of all we&#039;ve been taught.  Good! I like that!

So, has Jesus commissioned us to get people &quot;saved&quot; or to relieve their suffering?  

Which leads to questioning, then, what is &quot;saved&quot; and how do people get there?  Our tradition says that we lead someone to the point where they pray the &quot;sinner&#039;s prayer&quot; with us and then they are &quot;in&quot;.  

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s it anymore (am I actually saying it this publicly!!).  I&#039;m wondering if we are commissioned to see people&#039;s suffering and be so moved with compassion that we embrace them. Is that how doors in their heart are open for God to work (instead of  the &quot;sinner&#039;s prayer&quot;)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree&#8230;. but struggle when in conversations with those who adamantly believe that the over-riding purpose of the church is to &#8220;get people saved&#8221;.  Once &#8220;saved&#8221;, all other problems will be solved!  Not keeping that as a priority seems to fly in the face of all we&#8217;ve been taught.  Good! I like that!</p>
<p>So, has Jesus commissioned us to get people &#8220;saved&#8221; or to relieve their suffering?  </p>
<p>Which leads to questioning, then, what is &#8220;saved&#8221; and how do people get there?  Our tradition says that we lead someone to the point where they pray the &#8220;sinner&#8217;s prayer&#8221; with us and then they are &#8220;in&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s it anymore (am I actually saying it this publicly!!).  I&#8217;m wondering if we are commissioned to see people&#8217;s suffering and be so moved with compassion that we embrace them. Is that how doors in their heart are open for God to work (instead of  the &#8220;sinner&#8217;s prayer&#8221;)?</p>
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