Comments on: Liturgical Theology 4 | Does doctrine lead to practice or vice versa? http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/ field notes from the missional church planting frontier Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:05:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ben Sternke http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/comment-page-1/#comment-3122 Ben Sternke Sat, 06 Aug 2011 22:04:13 +0000 http://bensternke.com/?p=301#comment-3122 My point is that while our doctrine comes from practitioners who worship, our worship also needs to be informed by doctrine. This helps us temper our personal experience with the witness of the saints throughout history. If "God" seems to be saying something significantly different to us than He did to everyone else in church history, it should give us pause and make us question our confidence in some kind of "direct link" to heaven. Our experience of salvation needs to be tempered by life in community and submission to the witness of the Scriptures. My point is that while our doctrine comes from practitioners who worship, our worship also needs to be informed by doctrine. This helps us temper our personal experience with the witness of the saints throughout history. If "God" seems to be saying something significantly different to us than He did to everyone else in church history, it should give us pause and make us question our confidence in some kind of "direct link" to heaven. Our experience of salvation needs to be tempered by life in community and submission to the witness of the Scriptures.

]]> By: Ben Sternke http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/comment-page-1/#comment-3101 Ben Sternke Wed, 03 Aug 2011 05:03:29 +0000 http://bensternke.com/?p=301#comment-3101 I probably am confused about a great many things, Conrad, but you say "it is not an intellectual thing" but also that a "realization" is needed in the mind... perhaps I'm not the only one who is confused? "Worship evolves out of the experiences we have from putting into practice what we learn from dogma." But where does dogma come from, if not from worshiping practitioners? My point is that it's a chicken-and-egg question with some mystery to it, that's all. I probably am confused about a great many things, Conrad, but you say "it is not an intellectual thing" but also that a "realization" is needed in the mind… perhaps I'm not the only one who is confused?

"Worship evolves out of the experiences we have from putting into practice what we learn from dogma."

But where does dogma come from, if not from worshiping practitioners? My point is that it's a chicken-and-egg question with some mystery to it, that's all.

]]> By: Conrad Wareham http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/comment-page-1/#comment-3100 Conrad Wareham Wed, 03 Aug 2011 04:41:08 +0000 http://bensternke.com/?p=301#comment-3100 You seem confused. I suggest you read Evagrius Ponticus "The Praktikos & Chapters on Prayer. Worship evolves out of the experiences we have from putting into practice what we learn from dogma. Worship developes a two way communication with Spirit. It is not an intellectual thing and contemplative prayer is not needed. What is needed is the realization (at first the concept in the mind) that God is Divine Mind, the breath of my life, and the source of all life and supply. Out of the egg and the seed life springs in all its diverse forms; life that is self regulating. The self regulating part is a mystery to science. Even our earth is self regulating. Realizing these things it is easy to form a relationship with Devine mind and Devine Will. Prayer and praise expand this relationship. And it is faith that builds the bond in consciousness that God is our true source for everything. God is eternal life. You seem confused. I suggest you read Evagrius Ponticus "The Praktikos & Chapters on Prayer. Worship evolves out of the experiences we have from putting into practice what we learn from dogma. Worship developes a two way communication with Spirit. It is not an intellectual thing and contemplative prayer is not needed. What is needed is the realization (at first the concept in the mind) that God is Divine Mind, the breath of my life, and the source of all life and supply. Out of the egg and the seed life springs in all its diverse forms; life that is self regulating. The self regulating part is a mystery to science. Even our earth is self regulating. Realizing these things it is easy to form a relationship with Devine mind and Devine Will. Prayer and praise expand this relationship. And it is faith that builds the bond in consciousness that God is our true source for everything. God is eternal life.

]]> By: Benjamin Sternke http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/comment-page-1/#comment-606 Benjamin Sternke Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:01:27 +0000 http://bensternke.com/?p=301#comment-606 I don't think of the "rightness" of worship as being found in the form worship takes, or the specific style used, etc. So in one way there can be a wide variety of forms of worship (and with the variety of cultures in our world, I don't think "one size fits all"). But we do see some clues in the Bible about "patterns" of worship - revelation and response, etc. Check out Isaiah 6, for example, and Revelation 4-5, for example... these kinds of patterns need to work their way into our worship, I believe. But I also think that worshiping "rightly" involves real encounter with God's presence. It isn't enough to simply "do it right" - there has to be a softness of heart that truly desires to meet with, speak with, worship, and obey God. I don’t think of the “rightness” of worship as being found in the form worship takes, or the specific style used, etc. So in one way there can be a wide variety of forms of worship (and with the variety of cultures in our world, I don’t think “one size fits all”). But we do see some clues in the Bible about “patterns” of worship – revelation and response, etc. Check out Isaiah 6, for example, and Revelation 4-5, for example… these kinds of patterns need to work their way into our worship, I believe. But I also think that worshiping “rightly” involves real encounter with God’s presence. It isn’t enough to simply “do it right” – there has to be a softness of heart that truly desires to meet with, speak with, worship, and obey God.

]]> By: x http://bensternke.com/2006/12/liturgical-theology-4-does-doctrine-lead-to-practice-or-vice-versa/comment-page-1/#comment-605 x Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:43:33 +0000 http://bensternke.com/?p=301#comment-605 So, what is right worship? What does worshiping in spirit and in truth look like? Is there only one right way? So, what is right worship? What does worshiping in spirit and in truth look like? Is there only one right way?

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